yuletide_coal | It's always coalest before the dawn

I'd kill for a chance to write Ex Machina genderswap but the request itself is kind of a wet fart. I hope your friend writes the hell out of it and I can read it.

I think it should be more worryingly if people just started punching him or whatever it is you wanted to happen. Unless he went out there and actively tried to hurt people, wouldn't it be best if everyone just ignored him?

If you walk around in Hitler cosplay, people won't like you. People who react to someone in blackface aren't anti-black or racist, they hate the asshole in blackface.

What even? You want people to just live and let live in that situation, even if Hitler walking around could make some people very, very scared that more Nazi stans may pop up and harm them?

Cyrt

I wouldn't write about them anymore and wouldn't consume new fic about them, but I still read old Kane fic because to me, it's based on a media persona at the time. With the change in information, it's different. At the same time, I'm not going to shame or push a friend out of my life if they still do unless they make a complete ass of themselves and are horrible to the accusers and victims. Everyone has different lines.

The Kane case is relevant to me because I was raised a Blackhawks fan and still am one. I liked Kane rpf because of the media narrative between him and Toews. In a town where I didn't even get to watch games growing up due to the owner refusing to televise them, had to listen on the radio, the rejuvenation of the franchise was great.

At the same time, I wasn't taken in by the narrative. It's a boys club of sports players. I've been at bars the Hawks have been at, I know a few people who hooked up with hockey players. I've seen some behavior that might not be outright harrassment, but definitely needed only a pinky toe to get there. I was under no illusions that hockey players didn't sexually assault people, and that people on the team I support probably have. I have a very close friend who works media relations for the Cubs, and I've definitely heard things about those players from her (late night venting over the difficulties in hiding things from the public when they are directly about assault and being complicit as a woman) But until I know, I'm not going to stop reading the fic, nor will I stop being a fan of the player.

A lot of people in hockey fandom gave up the Hawks due to the Kane thing. Then there is the segment that didn't. Mostly the segment that didn't were fans of the team before Kane and Toews joined, it appeared (note: I was never fully involved in the fandom). The ones that did appeared to be fans of he Hawks due to the narrative.

The Hawks responded shittily. They let Kane go to training camp before it was resolved. After the matter was resolved (unsatisfactorily or not), sure, he can play, but before that, no.

I wrote to the management and expressed my distaste (in the same way I have about the Indian Head logo, which is an entirely different discussion). And then I go on. I watch games, go to one or two a year if a friend offers be tickets. The Hawks will change management and things will continue.

The NHL is far from good even with assault and abuse cases, but they're moving in a better direction. A Nashville player was suspended 20 games this year for domestic violence (1/4 of the season).

I'll just stop here, seeing as I could continue on indefinitely concerning my feelings over the NHL.

I think you misread AYRT's comment.

AYRT

Thanks for replying!! I meant more in an exchange context, but this was interesting to read anyway.

if someone dumbass with a Hitler mustache and costume is going to make you "very, very scared" you should probably seek professional help.

Oh, yeah, that's much better.

Cyrt

Oops, kind of missed the exchange context.

If I were a mod, I wouldn't ban noing or requesting characters who have been accused or convicted of rape/murder/the like. I'm going to assume good faith in that if a person is okay with reading and writing those people, they will request/offer it, and the people that aren't will ignore it/block it/won't offer to write out of spite.

I'm not here to police people's lines like that.

If people don't want to participate because of that, that's their perogative.

nayrt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally

yeah, no. these losers were out there dressed like nazis.

if you're out in the wild and see someone dressed up like a nazi, it's normal in the modern political climate to look around to make sure a bunch of other losers aren't around the corner with their loser tiki torches.

a moment of fear and alertness, only to later find out its an actor for some movie, is a much smarter move than to assume it's an actor and then get jumped.

It quite literally stops when it stops being specific. It's been, what, two? three? years since they rejected school shooter RPF and no rule has sprung up against violence or murder or guns in fic. The slope does not seem to be as slippery as you think it is.

Because of the lack of any outs, or because you didn't like the request itself? I don't know the film personally, but it sounded cool to me.

SC

At the same time, I feel that RPF cases with single people like that are a bit different than Nazi RPF, but I still probably wouldn't ban the nom. Again, people can request and offer what they want to.

I may, just maybe, ban a person if there's hate speech involved or going on about how wonderful the people are and what good decision makers they are in their prompts/letters, but not the noms.

The difference is between "dressed up like a Nazi" and "dressed and made up with great care to look specifically like Hitler." The latter would naturally raise questions that the former would not.

ayrt

But what about when you know it isn't good faith, because there's public proof, like with ars_belli, is my POV, I guess. Or, in the Kane case, svmadelyn, who doxxed and did a bunch of OTT crazy shit to Kane's victim. Her fighting to get Kane in like a_b does for Nazi's is equally bad faith, because outside of a fannish context, we know they don't view their bad deeds as bad.

If people don't want to participate because of that, that's their perogative.

That's how I feel about the current mod stance. If the hill you're willing to die on is Nazi RPF and similar being banned for the greater good of the participants, then just don't do Yuletide.

There was some amount of controversy in Germany over it. While a lot of people reacted negatively to the Hitler actor, or just laughed at him, a number of people seemed uncomfortably okay with what he was saying. Which was one of the points of the film -- it's critical of Nazism and Hitler, but also of modern Germans.

I clarified my earlier comment via a SC right later about my views on banning people, not noms.

(Oh, and the person was originally doxxed by her own lawyer holding up the evidence bag with her name not blurred on it and some of the media posted pictures. Svmadeleyn definitely truly doxxed in a major manner to fandom, though.)

That's not what was being said, though. They were talking about some movie where an actor went out dressed as Hitler specifically.

people dress up like hitler and in klansmen hoods all the time at neonazi rallys.

do you think anyone casually walking around at night during the unite the right rally should have assumed all those losers were making a music video or something ??????

if you've ever been where a movie is filmed, you know that most of the time there are permits posted or someone will flag you down/alert you if you're getting next to a scene being shot because you have to sign a release or walk around. without any notice, random hitler is a big wtf, super accurate or just a guy with a stache and a swastika on his arm.

Yeah, I was all ready to hate it but it's a pretty interesting request (I did watch the movie). I think there should've been more than one option, though.

"if you're getting next to a scene being shot because you have to sign a release"

In the USA, yes. But plenty of countries don't have that law.

and i'm saying that until you see the camera or filming notice, it's normal to be like wtf and scared if you're a group that the possible hitler cosplayer wouldn't like.

again, which is why you would have the Oh No moment until you sussed it out.

Have any?

I deleted the post with all my 2017 canon review notes, after I finished writing last year, figuring I wouldn't need it again, and then I got assigned the same fandom this year and I have to reread a whole book series again because I can't remember anything.

They weren't ignoring him. Some even did the Hitler salute for him.

It's always coalest before the dawn

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