yuletide_coal | It's always coalest before the dawn

I don't like them but I can't blame them if they don't want another finger-wagging fic that puts them in the spotlight for everyone to mock.

Maybe they can try not stanning Nazis.

If you’re going to run around professing how hawt and kewl you think literal Nazis are, you’re going to have to deal with the consequences. I think she deserves far worse than what she got.

Precisely. Gifting her nazi hunting fic should be a yuletide tradition.

SHE HAS PHOTOS OF NAZIS ON HER DREAMWIDTH TAGGED “OVARIES GO BOOM.” I’M GOING TO WAG MY FUCKING FINGER UNTIL IT FALLS THE FUCK OFF.

But coalie, not allowing in facists who killed six million people is such an “arbitrary line” according to some rando on _coal! And banning Nazi RPF means that the mods could outlaw any kink next! /s

na

Not that I disbelieved you, but I had to see for myself.

In addition to the pictures of Nazis, she also has a picture of a white, light-haired German actor which she titled "Aryan goodness".

This person knows exactly what she's doing and what it means. She does not deserve any sympathy and there is no reason to give her the benefit of the doubt.

cyrt

it's pretty fucking sickening, isn't it

DA

Even more sickening that we have people defending them and their apparent right to requesting Nazi RPF. :/

I feel like there's this whole abstract conversation going on around 'is Nazi RPF okay and if not, how does it differ from these other morally suspect things etc etc' when the real truth is that it could probably have been nominated by a different person asking for different things and gone through just fine.

It's Nazi RPF being requested by someone who's clearly a white supremacist that's the issue here. I'm pretty sure we'd all run screaming from writing underage RPF for Ian Watkins as well.

I don't think it's just because it's her. She can request canon with Nazi characters and have them bang and strut in their jackboots all she wants. Anybody can. It's that's it RPF specifically. Not fictional Nazis. The group of literal Nazis as a whole.

Not a fictional Nazi character who because he's made up hurt no one, but literal Nazis who murdered millions.

Just like you can write a priest seducing an underage kid in a canon with those characters if you really want to. And it's safe and okay, whether we like it or not, because those are not real people. They're fiction. Nobody actually got hurt. But Priest Pedophiles RPF ain't ever gonna be a thing. Same with stories about the school shooter in AHS. Fiction. Nobody really got shot. School Shooter RPF is another thing altogether.

Even in the case of serial killer RPF, which is not allowed, you can take the real character from Mindhunters and write the series-fictionalized version of him banging and potentially murdering Holden. Those two characters aren't real. Writing about the actual real-life killer, on the other hand, different.

The difference between fiction and non-fiction draws a pretty thick dividing line that some people (not you, necessarily, but others in this thread) act like they simply can't see, and they're full of shit.

DA
I think some of that comes into play, but this time she has, technically, requested a fictionalized version of the real person. It's the character in the "Conspiracy" movie.

AYRT

It's a fictionalized version of a specific person. That's a step removed from the real person. Just like Ed Kemper in Mindhunter. In the context of that show, the character is just a character.

Not to say I don't think she's gross, because I do. I'm not arguing for that but arguing against the RPF and the asinine notion that it ought to be allowed because "slippery slope."

AYRT

Thanks - I think I thought you were arguing against ars_belli's nomination/request this year, but instead you're drawing a distinction between "Second World War RPF" and Conspiracy, right?

AYRT

I'm arguing against Nazi RPF (or serial killer, or rapist, or whatever RPF) and making a distinction between that and characters in fictional media. I don't think it's unclear.

SA

If Conspiracy isn't a documentary, then its characters are fictionalize versions of real people I guess? Is that the issue? I think fictionalized version is the key.

I wouldn't be against mods banning that, or Ed Kemper from Mindhunter, or the serial killers from AHS:Hotel *personally*, but they've chosen not to and obviously see a distinction between the real people and their fictionalized versions in fictional media. *shrug*

Idgaf about her nomination this year. I was more replying to the arguments that if Nazi RPF is banned it's a slipper slope to everybody's kinks being banned from Yuletide. Bullshit argument.

You're making it very easy on yourself if you just say "oh, it's one step removed, that's okay then". Either RPF Is sketchy, then fictional canons about actual real people are exactly the same and writing fic about them is sketchy by association. Or fictionalization of real people in books and movies is okay. But then RPF is okay too. You can't have it both ways, be all "well, someone else did it first" and wash your hands in innocence.

DA

I agree with this in the sense that conceptually, they aren't very different. Saying that you can write fic of a person if they're a character in someone else's fiction is indeed like saying "you can only do RPF of them if someone else did RPF first."

On the other hand, I can see it being useful for a rule - if a rule is needed - because it allows you to identify more clearly what's okay and what isn't.

Sure. But any exchange or place that blanket bans RPF unless based on fictionalized canons would be an exchange I'd give a wide berth, and I'm glad that this isn't a thing.

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 07:00 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 07:09 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 07:23 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 07:46 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 08:06 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 08:29 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 08:55 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 08:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 22:58 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 22:54 (UTC) - Expand

SA

It IS different, but I'll admit it's a subtle difference, and this is coming from someone who thinks all RPF is sketchy. Doesn't mean I'm going to push for it to be banned from Yuletide. Nazi RPF however, yes, of course that should be banned.

I'm still in awe anybody argued against that. What a world.

AYRT

You're not SA though. (I think this was meant to go under your comment above?)

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 07:00 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 07:01 (UTC) - Expand

NA

I feel like even with fictionalised versions of either Nazis or serial killers I instinctively believe shipping/slashing them is in very poor taste. At the same time I wouldn't ban it, just side eye while I scrolled fast. I do think the real thing is beyond the pale though.

To comment on Conspiracy specifically:

It's no doubt partly the fact that we know ars_belli of old and thus read into her requests, but I find her prompts for fic about Reinhard Heydrich in particular troubling, because 1) it's so obvious she just fangirls him personally, and 2) he's played completely straight in the film. There's no hidden conflict there, or any of the things she's prompted for. He is 100% an ideological Nazi, committed to every one of his beliefs and plans. I'd find it easier to believe someone wanted genuine exploratory fic if they'd prompted for Doctor Stuckart, for example, who initially lulls the viewer into thinking he's the "good German" by being softly spoken and played by Colin Firth, and then you suddenly realise he's as viciously racist as anyone else, he just believes in doing things by the book, and wants the law to be observed. I'd read Yuletide fic about that, though I wouldn't request or write it.

Re: ars_belli

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-24 07:32 (UTC) - Expand

A fictionalized person in a 2-hour film or TV series, unless it's a documentary, is not the same as that real person. If I write Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter fan fiction, I'm not writing about actual Abe Lincoln, but the character in the novel or movie. It's a limited canon.

If I write about John Wayne Gacy in the context of that stupid serial killer dinner on AHS: Hotel (that prompted be stop watching that show), it's in the context of that show about that fictionalized version of him. Writing Ed Kemper and Holden in Mindhunter is the fictionalized character of Ed Kemper in the context of that show. It may be a subtle difference, but it is one.

Fictional canons about real people aren't the same, no. And again, no, NAZI or Serial Killer RPF in a damn holiday fan fiction exchange is not the same as fictionalization of real people in books in movies. That's absurd.

+1