yuletide_coal | It's always coalest before the dawn

It's always coalest before the dawn

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NA What about athletes accused or convicted of rape like Patrick Kane or Mike Tyson?

/OEA not trying to start wank but genuinely asking. I never liked Kane so his news didn't shock or impact me. If a real person I liked did something awful, I'd drop them, no questions asked. I don't think there's anything wrong in having your RPF ship noncon one another or be nonconned, and depending on how much I like an existing character, the actor/ess being shitty wouldn't ruin them for me, but I wouldn't get into into their new stuff going forward. But the moment new did something wrong like that or were revealed to be some kind of bigot, I'm out of their RPF fandom. I just think people's POVs on this are interesting?

Personally, my line would be this: if you want to write noncon fic about someone who has credibly been accused of rape, that’s personally offputting to me but fine...unless you’re asking for fic that fleshes out and details the rape allegations itself.

AYRT

I agree in a free context (like posting to AO3 on your own time) but how would that be handled as a mod? Noms don't come with prompts and ODAO. Would the mod then vet the sign up during matching and if it asks for play by play rape fic they get booted? What if the author ODAO a "write me a fic where the rapist dies slowly of cancer" and does play by play rape fic? Emergency PH and a ban?

How would you ban that? It's not breaking any rules.

I misunderstood — I didn’t realize AIRT was only talking in an exchange context. Although to be fair, things that aren’t currently against the rules could be if the rules were changed?

AYRT

Sorry, I meant in a non-exchange context.

I don’t know how you’d have a hard-and-fast rule about it for an exchange like this, to be honest. I guess the best thing you could do is an emergency PH if the author mentioned it, and a general statement somewhere along the lines of “gratuitous and prurient depictions of real life traumas involving real characters”? Although that’s so vague as to be nearly toothless.

AYRT

Ah, I get you. I was talking about the exchange context because you said your request/offer it and I wanted to know how you would feel if someone had a rapist in the tagset, like a Dr Luke or whatever Kesha's rapist's name is nom.

I guess the best thing you could do is an emergency PH if the author mentioned it, and a general statement somewhere along the lines of “gratuitous and prurient depictions of real life traumas involving real characters”? Although that’s so vague as to be nearly toothless.
Thread

Yeah :/ That's why I wanted to talk about it. For what it's worth, I'm on the side of how the mods handle RPF that overlaps with IRL issues but, like I said, I nope out when the IRL issues happen so it wouldn't impact me. I just wanted to know if you had a POV as someone who maybe would still stan the fictional aspect of them. No RPF fic is so in character that it's the same as a reality show of the same people and I can kinda understand staying in the RPF fandom but not caring about the actual real person anymore, but it seemed like you still wouldn't want a Dr Luke in the tagset. So I asked if you were/how you felt. Thanks for answering!

Cyrt

I wouldn't write about them anymore and wouldn't consume new fic about them, but I still read old Kane fic because to me, it's based on a media persona at the time. With the change in information, it's different. At the same time, I'm not going to shame or push a friend out of my life if they still do unless they make a complete ass of themselves and are horrible to the accusers and victims. Everyone has different lines.

The Kane case is relevant to me because I was raised a Blackhawks fan and still am one. I liked Kane rpf because of the media narrative between him and Toews. In a town where I didn't even get to watch games growing up due to the owner refusing to televise them, had to listen on the radio, the rejuvenation of the franchise was great.

At the same time, I wasn't taken in by the narrative. It's a boys club of sports players. I've been at bars the Hawks have been at, I know a few people who hooked up with hockey players. I've seen some behavior that might not be outright harrassment, but definitely needed only a pinky toe to get there. I was under no illusions that hockey players didn't sexually assault people, and that people on the team I support probably have. I have a very close friend who works media relations for the Cubs, and I've definitely heard things about those players from her (late night venting over the difficulties in hiding things from the public when they are directly about assault and being complicit as a woman) But until I know, I'm not going to stop reading the fic, nor will I stop being a fan of the player.

A lot of people in hockey fandom gave up the Hawks due to the Kane thing. Then there is the segment that didn't. Mostly the segment that didn't were fans of the team before Kane and Toews joined, it appeared (note: I was never fully involved in the fandom). The ones that did appeared to be fans of he Hawks due to the narrative.

The Hawks responded shittily. They let Kane go to training camp before it was resolved. After the matter was resolved (unsatisfactorily or not), sure, he can play, but before that, no.

I wrote to the management and expressed my distaste (in the same way I have about the Indian Head logo, which is an entirely different discussion). And then I go on. I watch games, go to one or two a year if a friend offers be tickets. The Hawks will change management and things will continue.

The NHL is far from good even with assault and abuse cases, but they're moving in a better direction. A Nashville player was suspended 20 games this year for domestic violence (1/4 of the season).

I'll just stop here, seeing as I could continue on indefinitely concerning my feelings over the NHL.

AYRT

Thanks for replying!! I meant more in an exchange context, but this was interesting to read anyway.

Cyrt

Oops, kind of missed the exchange context.

If I were a mod, I wouldn't ban noing or requesting characters who have been accused or convicted of rape/murder/the like. I'm going to assume good faith in that if a person is okay with reading and writing those people, they will request/offer it, and the people that aren't will ignore it/block it/won't offer to write out of spite.

I'm not here to police people's lines like that.

If people don't want to participate because of that, that's their perogative.

SC

At the same time, I feel that RPF cases with single people like that are a bit different than Nazi RPF, but I still probably wouldn't ban the nom. Again, people can request and offer what they want to.

I may, just maybe, ban a person if there's hate speech involved or going on about how wonderful the people are and what good decision makers they are in their prompts/letters, but not the noms.

ayrt

But what about when you know it isn't good faith, because there's public proof, like with ars_belli, is my POV, I guess. Or, in the Kane case, svmadelyn, who doxxed and did a bunch of OTT crazy shit to Kane's victim. Her fighting to get Kane in like a_b does for Nazi's is equally bad faith, because outside of a fannish context, we know they don't view their bad deeds as bad.

If people don't want to participate because of that, that's their perogative.

That's how I feel about the current mod stance. If the hill you're willing to die on is Nazi RPF and similar being banned for the greater good of the participants, then just don't do Yuletide.

I clarified my earlier comment via a SC right later about my views on banning people, not noms.

(Oh, and the person was originally doxxed by her own lawyer holding up the evidence bag with her name not blurred on it and some of the media posted pictures. Svmadeleyn definitely truly doxxed in a major manner to fandom, though.)

+ 1

(And I don't really care if the victim's lawyer fucked up. I really, really don't.)

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