yuletide_coal | The Dirty Energy Source

Huh, I have one request where I was planning on requesting the m/m part and mentioning that I'm also cool with m/m/canonical girlfriend and prompting for both accordingly--not because I "really want the OT3 more" but because it's a tiny-ass fandom currently consisting of me and me and I want to maximize my chances of convincing SOMEONE ELSE ANYONE to write it.

I'm not sure how to make it any clearer that yeah, I really want the threesome, but I ALSO really want the slash, because they're both great.

But given that the fandom is me and I'm holding out vague hope a friend might write it, I probably shouldn't worry too much about hypotheticals...

AYRT

Theres a fandom that I've offered all year and have actually written in once. It's me and maybe two others, although Yuletide has brought out more people! They seem to be more inclined to my interpretation of canon, which means good for my treating odds!

Pretending that you're my Other Person for a moment, it's fine that you like and equally want M/M and M/M/+canonical GF. I just know that you wont like any fic I give you that has M/M, because based on canon I cannot see M/F lasting romantically or platonically. They're at different stages of their lives.

We won't offer M/M/F because we can't see it working. If you request M, M, and F then we'll peacefully exist as ships passing in the night. IF you request M, M while saying that you'd love GF to be a background character or potentially an OT3, that lets me know that you'd be better off with someone who could make that happen for you, and I'd default.

If the other people in your fandom are like me and see you thinking M/M/canonical GF means that you see a completely different post-canon endgame for what would've happened after everything settled. And that's fine. But you probably don't want fic from us, because we see Main Character differently from you, and our headcanon thinks that he won't be content unless he's doing things that would be OOC for Canonical Girlfriend to join in on or excuse.

Such a special snowflake! *

I love how me saying that they're perfectly fine and within their rights to read, write, and request M/M/F and that I would rather risk getting no fic than possibly give then badfic makes me a special snowflake.

1/10 Try harder.

it's fine that you like and equally want M/M and M/M/+canonical GF. I just know that you wont like any fic I give you that has M/M, because based on canon I cannot see M/F lasting romantically or platonically.

I'm really missing some logical step here, how does this follow? If the recipient likes and equally wants M/M and M/M/CGF then why exactly do you assume they wouldn't like the M/M? Unless you cannot write the M/M without bashing the CGF??

In my specific canon, M/M happening means that M/F will lose essentially lose all contact with each other.

Think Kirk leaving behind a very nice and well meaning girlfriend who has strong family ties that mean more to her than anything, so she has to stay on earth no matter what because to her, leaving isn't an option. They break up because Kirk wants/needs to go on the 5 year mission with his other love interest Spock.

If they think that Kirk/Spock/CGF would work, then that means they see CGF as willing to leave her family, responsibilities, and earth behind or Kirk (and Spock) would have to be willing to give up their innate drive to explore and learn new things. Either way, I see one of them as being miserable or living half a life, and they didn't request sadfic, so.

With my interpretation of canon, I can't ever see CGF or Kirk/Spock doing that. If they think that they can, then that's fine, but it means my fic will come off as OOC to them and could potentially be badfic. The letter I'm thinking of specifically, in my situation, says something like "I love M/M and M/M/CGF! If you do write M/M, I'd love for CGF to still be involved!" Which is all well and good, but if I matched to that letter the only thing I could think to write would be five times fic where the main character sent CGF and update about his life and all the things M/M got up to. Not badfic, but not something I would enjoy writing and I suspect not what they were hoping for in terms of CGF interaction. They don't have any actual prompts in their letter, besides "post canon or pre canon!" so that could be another issue I'm having.

AIRT and I aren't talking about the same fandom, but if it is anything like mine, then I was giving them an explanation why someone might default if their letter is heavily skewed towards OT3, even if it seems like they'd want M/M just as much as OT3.

It's possible to interpret canon differently and get different things out of it. I don't think I'm any more right or wrong than them. I really hope that my Other Person and AIRT gets all the fics and treats in the world. I wouldn't offer A, B, and C so if I saw a letter that heavily hinted at A/B/C being an option I'd be like Oh Dear.

But... what? I still don't get it. I mean, maybe you and everyone in the fandom are Very Serious Monoshippers, but why would you be completely unable to take the recipient at their word that they are a multishipper and would be equally happy to read just the M/M pairing (and whatever emotional and plot trappings accompany that) as they would to read M/M/CGF (and whatever accompanies that as well)?

I don't know the fandom, obviously, but in your Kirk/Spock/Girlfriend example, I could just, easily see you writing the Kirk/Spock portion of it without addressing the girlfriend at all?

NA

I could just as easily see you writing the Kirk/Spock portion of it without addressing the girlfriend at all?

Except AYRT says specifically that the prompt is along the lines of "If you do write M/M, I'd love for CGF to still be involved!" - to AYRT, I infer, this means that just writing M/M with absolutely zero CGF for this recip might easily come across as coal/unenjoyable fic, and AYRT would rather not risk blackening somebody's stocking.

I'm glad you understand the situation I'm in, coalie! u___u

AYRT

♥ I'm totally that person who has in the past blithely skipped through the sunny fields of Any, only to find that every single available letter for that fandom clearly saw an M/M ship COMPLETELY differently than I did. I'm a little more careful now, for exactly the reasons you describe - I'm not judging anybody, no one's doing canon wrong, I just don't want to end up coaling somebody.

AYRT

Yup, exactly! I also don't want to be That Guy who thinks they can convert them into seeing things my way through fic, and since their letter is the way it is, I have no idea how they ended up on their headcanon, so I can't even use it as an exercise in trying to see if the grass is greener from their side!

I really hope they match on that fandom (and get the fic of their dreams) so that our little fandom gets more fic. ANY FIC IS GOOD FIC. I WOULD LIKE MORE FIC.

Going to quote this bit from my post since it addresses the specific scenario I'm talking about and answers your second question

The letter I'm thinking of specifically, in my situation, says something like "I love M/M and M/M/CGF! If you do write M/M, I'd love for CGF to still be involved!"

As I said way back up there, if the letter was truly all/mostly M/M prompts and then an offhand mention that, hey, if you ship, M/M/F too, that's awesome, feel free to work it in there, then it wouldn't be a problem for me, because I can't work it in there, but you gave me all those other prompts so I will give you the 10k+ M/M fic of your dreams! Kirk/Spock coming right up.

But in my specific case, my Other Person wants CGF to still be involved and then gave no other details on how they see that still being possible. The letter says, "hey I ship M/M, would love for something before or after canon, I also really love M/M/F too! F is one of my favs. Actually, if you write M/M, I would love for F to be still be a part of their lives!" and I'm like. Um.

I take them at their word that they ship both, but that optional detail combined with no prompts on how they see that being possible (as if it's a given) would make me want them to have another author to give them the fic of their dreams.

Anything other than that (it isn't even a slash or het problem, if CGF was CBF I still couldn't make M/M/M happen and not make it an AU where CBF somehow had no earthly ties) and I could make it work and believe that they'd be happy with the M/M fic I would write.

If it isn't that big of a deal to you, maybe don't word it like that. If it is a big deal, make sure to keep that in there so you get a fic you like!

For the record, I was the person you promised the 10K M/M fic of my dreams to! I'm returning to the thread for the first time since yesterday. I follow your reasoning pretty well, and I think there's a difference between my hypothetical [slash prompts for A and B, called A/B my OTP, but then gave an additional prompt for a threesome involving one of the canonical girlfriends] and the second AYRT [requesting the m/m part and mentioning that they're also cool with m/m/canonical girlfriend and prompting for both; they really want the threesome, but they ALSO really want the slash].

Mine was a list of half a dozen M/M prompts and one threesome right at the bottom, which I felt confident, based on your reply to me, that you could quite merrily ignore. I specifically didn't ask for the CGF to be present in the M/Ms for reasons vaguely similar to some that you've suggested. I think there is a big difference both in wording, but also in reality/feasibility.

Does it sound like we're still on the same page?

Yours still sounds golden to me.

From how it sounds like your letter is written, I don't think you'll have a problem if your fandom is like mine where the OT3 takes some hardcore canon bending, and you really won't have any problems if your M/M/F is more Kirk/Spock/Uhura than Kirk/Spock/Girlfriend Who Ain't Ever Going Up Into Space!

In my opinion, you have nothing to worry about, and there's still a multiverse where I'm writing you 10k+ of M/M exactly according to your wonderful letter. It might even be this universe!!

High five from Earth-137. Thank you.

What fandom is this?

Too small to say without outing myself and the Other Person.

Jesus, you *are* a special snowflake.

DA

Explain to me where the special snowflake is coming in? I don't see it. They don't think they see their view of canon as ~unique and true~ or ~the the other person just doesn't understand the characters right~.

NAYRT

They're so hellbent on their M/M otp that they can't take the author at their word for requesting M/M with an OPTIONAL caveat that M/M/F would be nice, or the inclusion of F in some way would be nice. They are letting the mere presence of F in the request sink their ship so hard that they would insist on defaulting rather than just write the fucking M/M the person requested in the first fucking place.

NAYRT

No if it was an optional caveat it would have been presented that way in the wording. They point blank say in their letter that they would like CGF to be involved in any fic, shippy or gen, because they really like CGF.

That's fine and doesn't ruin my ship or make me hate them. I can't think of a way to make that happen. Had they put in any concrete prompts at all, maybe I would have any insight as to what type involvement they had in mind. The lack of that makes me assume that they think of course she'll still be there, and I don't see it that way, so I want them to get the best fic they can give.

I don't think I'm good enough to convince them that M/M is just as good without CGF in the picture. I wouldn't want to force them to think that anyway. Them liking CGF is fine (she's great!) and more power to her for wanting M/M/F to happen.

You're an OAA and I'm going to assume you're a troll as well. I hope you have a very nice rest of your week!

NA

No, it's just that you sound so sanctimonious about it all. That brings out the (so-called) OAA in otherwise reasonable people.

I'm not being morally superior? This is just about writing fic. I think that any fic I wrote for them wouldn't be what they're looking for, since it goes exactly against the optional details they requested.

I'm not going to show up in the comments of the fic they get and be like "Oh, you should be thanking me for defaulting on you! It's all thanks to me that you went on the PH list! Otherwise you would've gotten stuck with me!"

If I powered through and wrote against their one, reasonable, optional detail, coal would be up in arms over how I should have defaulted. Or they'll rake her through the coals for being upset that I ODAO and that she wasn't happy for a fic that didn't go against her DNWs. Why screw either of us over like that?

It's too early in the week for you to be this upset over me doing what's best for both me and a hypothetical recipient. I hope the rest of your week goes great too.

Re: People You'd Default On

(Anonymous) - 2014-10-20 21:38 (UTC) - Expand

Can someone find this supposed letter so we can look at it ourselves?

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AYRT

I'm not a troll and I'm only being OAA because of your own attitude. People in here and in FFA are always complaining about how the exacting, pedantic people on here make them worried about writing their own letters and it's genuinely upsetting and frustrating to me that you are insistent on defaulting on someone and sending them out to pinch hits just because they included an optional detail that conflicted with your ship.

I mean, this is something you wrote:

If it was obvious that you really wanted the threesome or if the threesome idea came up in more than one prompt, I'd bail so that you could hopefully get someone willing to write it.

That encapsulates the attitude I'm reacting to here. You, recipient, are allowed to mention a threesome no more than one time in your letter or you're out on the street because nothing I write could ever possibly be enjoyable to you. How dare you mention an optional detail that isn't my exact favored ship in anything other than a long list of options at the end, which my eyes will glaze over anyway.