yuletide_coal | It's always coalest before the dawn

Oh boy, I love it when people start talking about eradicating their opponents!

MTE. I haven't met with this much in my country's discourse (maybe far-right is up to such stuff, but I'm not in such circles) but we have in very much living memory political repression. I come across this often online from both leftists and rightists and I think they are mostly from countries where neither they nor their parents ever had the risk of state assaults on political disagreement. It reads like a caricature of the young radical.

The tactic of wishing death upon anybody who disagrees with you wouldn't have passed in my school debate group. It certainly shouldn't be acceptable in a discussion among adults. If you can't make a civil on-topic contribution, you had best keep out of it altogether.

FFS. We're not talking about political opponents. We're talking about people whose aim is to destroy minority groups. You can't sit down at a table with them and change their minds over coffee. Or you could, I don't know, ban their nominations at Yuletide and pat yourselves on the back because that'll surely show them. This is peak coal. Let's ban Nazi RPF, but God forbid we hurt actual Nazis.

AYRT

We are in fact talking about, at best, political opponents. (You know, if you don't subscribe to the "women who won't sleep with me are TERFs" thing - but if you don't, please push back against that in your community, don't just deny it when women call it out.) I know that on the internet no one knows you're a dog, but I hope you'll believe me when I say that I'm nb and most of my family was wiped out by the Nazis and I find it really racist and insulting to suggest that these cries of "feminazi!" are any more legit now than they were when Rush Limbaugh came up with them.

DA

+1

The issue of what criteria makes someone a man or a woman or by what criteria and into what categories we classify people in society are very much political questions. It's everybody's right to argue for their own belief and to try to make it as applied as possible, but neither claiming that this should be done on the basis of sex or on the basis of gender are neutral statements. TWAW is no more of a neutral objective statement than TWAM.

AYRT

No, sorry, actual Nazis and actual TERFs aren't "political opponents", they are hate groups. And honestly, I don't need your background, real or not, to agree with you that calling people Nazis who aren't Nazis and calling people TERFs who aren't TERFs is despicable. That's not the point. We're talking about people who deny the existence or the right of existence of minority groups, not women who won't have sex with any random person for any random reason.

AYRT

We're talking about people who deny the existence or the right of existence of minority groups

This bullshit is exactly why I'm calling the position you're staking out racist. Dang, I wish the only problem with Nazis was that they didn't think I existed!

Maybe I should wish Nazis didn't think I existed? Then they would never have targetted those like me and considered us a lesser level of human being.

or the right of existence

It's RIGHT THERE.

Can you give me a source on those feminist-run trans extermination camps?

Coalie, coalie, you can't just quote your own comment as evidence of a problem.

nayrt

Who is denying existence? At most what is being denied is a certain definition or the "membership of a group". If we must stick with this tedious trans wank, what is being denied is not that people who are trans exist as human beings, but their claim to self-definition.

If you have never seen arguments that people (overwhelmingly usually targetted at women) should "re-examine their genital preferences", I envy you. I certainly wish I hadn't.

AYRT

If you have never seen arguments that people (overwhelmingly usually targetted at women) should "re-examine their genital preferences", I envy you. I certainly wish I hadn't.

Yes, I've seen that argument. From men and from both cis and trans women. It's awful and despicable either way, and it reeks of entitlement that reminds me of the whole incel thing. But you know, if I would start judging the entire gender group of the person who says it, there would be literally no one left because in every group, there are people who think women somehow owe them sex.

nayrt

Then call it out when you see it, so that we don't have to, and don't tell us that it's not a real problem.

in every group, there are people who think women somehow owe them sex

Sure. Why not broaden it even more? In every group, there are people who think people owe them sex. That's nice and non-gendered now.

+1

Specifying women is a little...uh...

Well, coal's sarcasm detector is pretty broken today.

SA

And honestly, with the personal backstory you claim, I find it really disturbing that you would say white supremacists (which this thread is also about, even though the arguments are mostly about TERFs because there are obviously a whole bunch hanging out here) are "at best, political opponents" and think they deserve discourse.

AYRT

I have no words. You are an idiot who can't read, and you are a racist who thinks genocide is a nifty little rhetorical trick that you can use in service of other arguments because hey, it's not like anyone targeted by the Nazis is actually still around, right?

AYRT

Oh FFS, none of this is about Nazis the 1930's, as there's no need to eradicate them because most of them are dead and buried or old enough that they will die soon enough. But if you look at current events, but there are white supremacists rising almost everywhere. And yes, a lot of the people they target are (luckily) still around. It's happening right now, and this "oh, no, don't say you want to eradicate them, this choice of words is really harmful" stance you're employing while they're out there, marching for a white, straight, abled Europe / USA and would be happy to eradicate people who don't fit the bill, is not helping.

It wouldn't have been weird if it had been just about Nazis, neo or otherwise, But when you post about wanting to eradicate the lesbians *cough* feminazis *cough* TERFs, of course people are going to look askance at you. Why do you think the gays and Jews are so sensitive about the eradication language to begin with?!

AYRT

Except I never conflated lesbians with TERFs and have literally never seen them conflated except in an effort to stir wank. I honestly didn't think "all TERFs need to DIAF" (to avoid "eradicated" since it's clearly a loaded term) as a controversial statement. Possibly because whenever I encountered the term TERF before, it always meant "cis women actively fighting against trans rights" and not "lesbians who don't want to have sex with a person who has or ever had male genitalia", and that's how I use it.

I believe that that's how you use it, but I don't believe that that's the only way you've seen anyone else use it.

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