Rudolph the red-nosed dentist

[heavensqueen]

Writing post : http://yuletide-coal.dreamwidth.org/6728.html

Other useful links:
2016 Timeline : https://yuletide-admin.dreamwidth.org/28822.html
Collection: http://archiveofourown.org/collections/yuletide2016

 

Letters post: http://yuletide.livejournal.com/1274815.html
Letters DB: http://www.dennis-sellers.com/yuletide/index.html
Treat spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10Bv9vJXykH9BUgn6q5DIBliBgMWzlVpXiB9d1lNoub4/edit?usp=sharing

Yuleporn: http://yuletide.livejournal.com/1276881.html
Crueltide: http://yuletide.livejournal.com/1274987.html
Two for One: http://yuletide.livejournal.com/1278973.html

Comments

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

they said that one paragraph was a "reasonably long comment". i disagree with that and restated what length a comment needs to be in order for it to be "long" in my book.

comments are comments and there isn't an adjustment (e.g. 3k is long for trick or treat fic since the expected minimum is only 300 words) used in order to categorize them via length. if one paragraph is "reasonably long" then what are two paragraphs, three, a full comment, etc?

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

To me, "reasonably long" reads as as qualified as "quite long" or "rather long" would be, so somewhat short of long. But people break up paragraphs in different watys. What is one person's paragraph may be another person's six.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

given that an average paragraph equals 5 or 6 sentences on average, breaking that up into two or three paragraphs still would be small for me. you can pad them by pasting in lines of the story that you love but it still hits medium as maximum imo.

What is one person's paragraph may be another person's six.

it was considering the 'given that some people don't use line breaks or write really long sentences' that i said 4.3k characters would be "long". if you're only writing two paragraphs but you've hit 3k characters then that would be a medium/long comment.

this comment is 162 words/906 characters and 4 paragraphs long but it's still small despite me padding it with your own words. i dont think there's anything wrong with short comments, but it's only when compared to a single sentence that this could ever be seen as "reasonably long". 4.3k word and multiple length comments exist. those are long.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

*character

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

DA agrees with you. If I received a comment that was as long as this comment I'm replying to, I would consider it an adequate comment and be satisfied with it (at least for a fic under 5k - for a fic over 5k I'd think that my recip could have made a bit more of an effort). But I would not think that I just received a really long comment.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

This is clearly highly subjective. Personally, I think feedback the length of your comment would definitely be long.

To me, one sentence is short, several sentences / one paragraph is average length, multiple paragraphs is long. Anything beyond (a "full comment" or even multiple) is... crazy excessive, in my book. In all my years of reading fic, I've seen that sort of feedback maybe a dozen times in the wild in total, and it generally makes me go o.O.

I mean, I'm sure there are people who enjoy leaving or receiving 4k word comments, but I'd find it fairly intimidating as a writer - and unless the story is 50+k or so, I don't really feel it's justified. Then again, I did once leave a (for me, incredibly long) 500 word comment on a 300 word story because it made me so happy, so just comparing story/comment length is clearly not an adequate measure either.

TL;DR: What's considered a "long" and a "short" comment depends very much on your personal definition.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

NA

But we're talking about Yultide here. People write 1k+ *fics* for characters that showed up in half a sentence or for commercials. I understand your POV but how is it any less o.O to want fic that "excessively", or to sign up to write that fic. If you're in a small fandom with nobody else to talk to and someone gives you any number of k then you really can't see why or how someone could have a lot to say about the fandom and the fic?

Personally I o.O when someone requests a fandom of one and all they can say is a line or two. Upgrade that to a full O.O if they only have that much to say on a 3k+ fic. But that's just my POV! I can see how it's intimidating but it's no different than wanting to write fanfic in the first place. You saw something you liked and you liked it so much you wrote about it. They liked your fic so much they commented on it. Not everybody has this feeling (lol which is why lots of people find the idea of spending time writing fanfiction for free as insane).

That aside...even though it's long *for you*, there really isn't any subjectivity. That's why you had to qualify your statement as "for you". For someone who never comments at all a single comment = super long. That doesn't make it long. Comments don't exist in a vacuum and something that nearly hits the character limit or takes multiple comments is a long comment. You can squabble over where the line between 'small' and 'medium' but long isn't really up for debate even if you think long = excessive.

Your short/medium comments are never gonna get confused for a long one.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

You seem overly invested in this.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

Yes and you being on a community dedicated to a single exchange and caring enough to reply to me shows a negative amount of investment.

I'm in awe of how much you don't care about fanfiction, Yuletide, or comments.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

My investment in this particular topic is precisely 3 sentences long. Yours is going on how many paragraphs now?

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

+ 1

I write multiple comments really easily. When my comment comes in under the 4.3k character limit I feel like it's short for me. I know that it isn't actually a short comment!

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Of course feedback that spans multiple comments is "long". But I balk at the idea that a comment only starts being long at 4k words.

That's like saying fic is only long when it's over 20k. You might feel that way, and you're perfectly entitled to do so, but others will consider a 5k story longfic. The same goes for comments.

No one is going to contest that a three word reply is short and that a "full comment" is long, in the same way that no one's going to contest that a 1001 word Yuletide fic is short and a 50k epic is long, but most things in-between are open to interpretation, and just because you say there is "no subjectivity" doesn't make it true.

Personally I o.O when someone requests a fandom of one and all they can say is a line or two.

I don't feel like someone needs to be effusive in order to convey their thanks. I mean, it's okay if they want to ramble on about their love for the ship or the fandom for a while, but I certainly don't side-eye anyone for not wanting to engage in that, especially not with an anonymous author.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

But I balk at the idea that a comment only starts being long at 4k words.

People are talking about 4k characters, i.e. one AO3 comment. Not 4k words.

About your last paragraph, do you need to be effusive to say thank you? No, but I still find a short thank you a bit disappointing when I spent a long time writing a fic and trying very hard to tailor it to my recip's requests. And frankly, if you leave the same kind of comment on 1001 half-assed words as you do on 10k tailored to your likes, I probably won't bother writing 10k tailored to your likes for you. I'll keep my lovingly crafted 10k for someone who actually shows me they appreciate them.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

DA

No one is going to contest that a three word reply is short and that a "full comment" is long, in the same way that no one's going to contest that a 1001 word Yuletide fic is short and a 50k epic is long, but most things in-between are open to interpretation, and just because you say there is "no subjectivity" doesn't make it true.

So are you agreeing with them that long and short aren't hard to tell apart but the middle ground is? Because that's what it sounds like so I'm not sure what you're arguing.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I just honestly don't get how anyone has that much feedback to give (especially in a Yuletide context where it's considered kind of rude to leave anything but positive feedback) unless the story was very, very long. Like, even if I think a person's characterizations were spot on, there's only so many words I can use to say that without looking like a kid trying to pad their essay to reach minimum word count.

With a story, if you have even an inkling of an idea or a character, I find that it's easy to write something 1k+. But feedback is different, and it's something I have trouble really going on and on and on about. Crafting your own world and plotline is different than writing a personal feedback note where you're only reacting to what's there. I spend a long time on my comments but can't imagine needing more than one comment's length just for feedback (unless I'm copypasting half the damn story into the comment and giving feedback to each individual line).

I'd personally consider a few paragraphs of feedback long. It is definitely subjective.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

NA who has been rubbernecking

Since you kinda asked I went through my inbox Archive and dug up a few of the Good Commenters threads.

aurilly on a 24k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/66704365
aurilly on a 2k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/52397869
amyfortuna on 3k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/60891418
christein on 3k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/38633111
cricket_aria on 11k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/47476640
fallingvoices on 16k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/47530280
furchte_die_schildkrote on 1k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/66511339
furchte_die_schildkrote on 2k fichttp://archiveofourown.org/comments/60978769
linndechir on 12k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/60167290
linndechir on 600 word fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/80772358
spock on 1k fic http://archiveofourown.org/comments/80776357

These are what I've been imagining when people have been saying "long comments". Insert disclaimer that I don't think they're better than a good short comment just because they're longer but none of these came off as padding, effusive or performative to me.

I've only hit the character limit once but I can't imagine leaving a comment that was only a paragraph long on a gift for me...as long as I actually liked it. If that fic does have an inkling of a trope I like/well-characterized version of a character I love, saying 500 words about is an easy thing to do even if the fic is only a couple thousand.

I don't think it's weird to have a lot to say about a fandom they went out of their way to nominate and request a fic for when it's something they have the ability to do. Like the other anon (and you) said, they're crafting a response and reacting to what they read in the same way that we all use fic as a response to the canons we consume. It's not something that you can do but that doesn't make it some mystical skill.

FWIW a lot of the the people who write "good" comments of any length get treats catered to them which probably makes it really easy for them to leave good feedback. They have lots of stuff to talk about since every single word is something they love. Even going through these people's gifts I was able to spot which ones they didn't care as much for and those comments were more fluff and not nearly as long.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

NA

Sometimes I leave long comments (i.e. over AO3's word limit), especially on gifts for me. That's because I genuinely got really excited and wanted to somehow try to convey how much I loved the fic, and express my gratitude to the writer. Again, especially on gifts, because that usually means it was a super-rare fandom, and that no one else might even read it. I don't do it because I "enjoy" leaving long comments; that has absolutely nothing to do with it. I didn't realize that there were people like you, who'd think it was "crazy excessive" and that not "justified". Shit, I mean, if I knew the writer felt that way I'd of course try my best to be brief! Now I'm gonna be second-guessing my comments for a while :\

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

Please don't second-guess your comments. Most writers enjoy getting long comments and don't judge their commenters for being "excessive". It's such a weird idea to me that thanking someone profusely for writing a fic in a small fandom, or even for writing any fic, is now excessive.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

NA

"Excessive" has a weird connotation that I don't think is justified here. I think writers who feel entitled to long comments are operating under an impossible-to-please criteria. Trying to pass off extremely long comments as the only acceptable ones is simply a way to guilt their recipients into padding out longer replies.

Some people will leave a sentence or two. You gave them something, they said thanks. Some people will gush on for two or three comment boxes. You gave them something, they uploaded pics to Instagram and Facebook, told everyone they know, and offered to bear your children. Some people won't even take the time to say thank you. As long as my recipient comments at all, I have received my thank you. I don't think I'm required to leave incredibly long, detailed replies on my gifts. I said thank you and didn't mention the socks are ugly and don't fit, and I can't tell if you spent two months knitting them or are one of those knitters upthread who are just picking up your needles two hours before deadline to churn out a gnarled mess.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Sorry? I mean, for the record, I'm not judging anyone for leaving long comments. Actually, I'll briefly get REALLY excited about it, because clearly my recip loves the fic so much that they leave long-winded gushing feedback.

But then I get to the point where I have to respond. I generally try to make my responses fit the tone and detail of the feedback - but in this case, there's just no way I could do that. So your lovely, multiple-comment feedback would be met with a "I'm so glad you loved this story" stretched awkwardly over one or two paragraphs that I would find absolutely cringeworthy and embarrassing. Hence my being uncomfortable with really long feedback. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(Also, I didn't mean "enjoy leaving long feedback" in a negative way. Just "enjoy" as opposed to "just stringing together 300 words feels like an incredible chore that's a lot harder than writing 3k words of fic. Which is how I feel about feedback. Or most social interaction.)

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

What do you do when you write a fic? You're giving your commentary and take on the world, characters, relationships, motivations, and so forth for the canon. That's what the majority of the long comments I've seen and gotten have commented on and when they give those kind of thoughtful notes it's hardly difficult to interact with their comment in the same way.

"Effusive" comments to me are the ones that go "OMG THIS IS AMAZING!!! SLAY!!! I'M DYING. FUCK ME UP THIS IS EVERYTHING ASLDJLAKSJDLKASJASDKLJSDAKLASDKJSDAKLSADJLDKSJKJLDSKDJASL" and that's it. That's an awkward comment to reply to and way too effusive to give to some random stranger. It has zero substance and all praise. Some people love them though and that is fine.

But you're telling me that you can't engage with an actual comment (and not just a form of "thanks" like my effusive example) in the same way that you're talking to anons here?

If someone points out that they like your characterisation and goes on for a paragraph about canon or how they talk about why the relationship works so well in your fic, you can't go "Yes, I pulled a lot from X's actions blah" or "I think the reason X/Y work so well is because blah"? It's essentially writing not!fic or meta.

There's a difference between effusive thanks and someone commenting on your story. If you were someone who literally never interacted with someone I wouldn't second guess your commenting ability but you're here right now having a back and forth with multiple someones over hypothetical comments and also saying that talking about fandoms you care enough to read/write fic isn't something you enjoy. I guess you could be someone who enjoys negative > positive interactions?

P.S. if you got multiple comments where the recip c&p your words and just YELLED IN CAPS OVER HOW CUTE!!!! nobody would expect you to leave an equally long thank you. I assume you're talking about the actual comments with substance that you label "effusive" but even people who leave those aren't expecting a reply to everything they said that's also 3 comments long. You don't have to leave long comments or long replies to comments if it really does ruin your day. AO3 even lets you disable comments now if that social interaction dampens your parade.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

IMO, as far as comments go, if I got a comment that was that length? I'd think it's long and be perfectly happy. A lot of people just aren't good at extended tl;dr gushing, and that's okay. That doesn't mean they're bad or mediocre commenters. Many people are capable of leaving absolutely lovely comments without needing a full comment or more.

Something like "Ooh, I liked this, your descriptions are lovely, thank you" would be a short and relatively unsatisfying comment, but a 2-4 paragraph comment is perfectly capable of containing a good description of what the reader specifically liked about your story. Especially if the story is under 5k words long.

IDK, I feel like every year the standards for what a "good comment" is go up and now you need to leave a detailed line-by-line analysis of the story or certain writers won't consider you worth their time.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

no where did i mention anything about "good comments".

my comments average about three paragraphs of 3-4 run on sentences for most yuletide fics. i'm a medium length commenter that can turn a little on the longer side if i pull out one or more passages to quote.

all my comment did was address length. and how that wasn't a long comment. no judgment on if they were exceptional, mediocre, or bad. just pure character length. i never talked about the content of comments beyond original words and quoting.

i'm not wanking about quality vs. quantity of comments and reading through the thread since i left, nobody else is either besides the anon who things long comments are effusive and the anon who doens't like empty comments.

you're gonna have to reply to someone else in order to get wank over this. i'm someone who would turn off comments altogether if it wouldn't cause wank itself. long or short: i don't care about them, i'm merely speaking to the fact that a long comment is long and a short comment is short, end of.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not trying to "get wank" out of anything; I'm discussing the topic at hand and I'd prefer if you didn't immediately assume bad faith of me. You might not have said anything regarding quality, but the topic started up when someone mentioned using a person's average comment length as a way to deem them worthy or unworthy of a treat. That attitude has been common on _coal these last few years and there's been higher and higher standards of what constitutes a "long comment" from your recipient. That's what bothers me, even if you specifically don't hold that opinion.

In your opinion, you're a medium length commenter. In my opinion, you're a long commenter. It's subjective. No, not subjective to the extent that a three word comment can be considered long, but three paragraphs is a long comment in my book. A vast majority of comments are a sentence or two long, therefore I consider three paragraphs "long" as far as feedback goes.

Re: Ways in which you are petty

[(Anonymous)]

when you reply to me specifically about something that has nothing to do with anything in my comment, i'm going to assume that you're trying to start something with me by holding me accountable for something you clearly have a grudge against when it's a position none of my comments have stated i held. if you're not trying to engage me in comment quality length then go +1 one of the other comments that say that there can be good short comments.

the subjectivity thing for long vs. short doesn't hold up for me. it's coded right there into ao3. 0 characters is too short for one comment and 4301 is too long for one. those are the metrics that we're working in. the short/medium divide is subjective but being near or above 4300 means long on ao3.

if you want three to four paragraphs to equal "long" then that means that a full comment or multiples are "extra long" or "epic length", no? in which case the categories are short-medium-long-extra long. even if you want to subjectively let the starting line for long being closer to medium or short, there's gonna be stuff on the longer end of long. so what is the point of calling something that should be medium long? it's not going to magically make a "long" comment seem longer when compared to truly long comments.

what i really don't understand is why you're set on calling it "long" when you're also arguing that nonlong comments are good. "short comments are great!! but 300 words counts as a long comment too in my book!" is like trying to have your cake and eat it too.